Brett Johnson
The Opportunity Zone Expo Podcast
Opportunity at the Intersection of Pro Sports and OZ
Transcription
Jack: Welcome back everybody. I'm Jack Heald for the OZExpo Podcast. I'm here today with Brett Johnson of Fortuitous Partners. Welcome, Brett.
Brett: Thanks, Jack. Pleasure to be here.
Jack: So, I've got to ask you why the name Fortuitus Partners? That's, that's a very evocative name.
Brett: Yeah, thanks for leading with that. We view the Opportunity Zone program as exactly that. Fortuitous and specifically relative to everything that we were doing relative to supporting our professional sports investments. So, I guess by way of background, my partners and I, we own a professional soccer franchise in Phoenix, Arizona, which is Phoenix Rising Football Club. And it's in the second division of the soccer pyramid in the United States. So, most people know major league soccer. There is a league below major league soccer called United Soccer League, USL. And it's done a phenomenal job, and in many instances it's been a feeder into major league soccer if you see in Cincinnati and now Nashville.
They both came up through the USL and a host of other franchises. So about five years ago, some partners and I, we saw this opportunity. We acquired is franchise. We built a, okay. The stadium about 8,000 seat capacity, minor league stadium. And we've been very fortunate to sell out all of our games and it got put together. The building blocks for what we expect will one day be a major league soccer franchise. So specifically to the point on Fortuitous, about a year ago, Goldman Sachs, who we work with on our stadium financing, specifically to MLS, they brought the Opportunity Zone program to my attention. I immediately had the epiphany relative to how, as I described it, this kind of this program bends the laws of economic gravity.
Jack: Oh, that's a great way to say it.
Brett: Yeah. I mean, I immediately kind of look at all the benefits, obviously the deferral, and the step up and then long-term hold. I mean, it's so consistent with most professional sports investors, look at things you invested for a long term. So yeah, I reached out to a couple of my core partners in Phoenix Rising. In particular, Berke Bakay, who's co-chairman with me at Phoenix Rising. And then another one of our partners who is Mark Dettmer, who's managing director for Jones Lang LaSalle in the west coast for their capital markets. And the three of us started to formulate an idea where we would create a partnership and we all sort of gravitated towards the name Fortuitous.
As we say, often the people that we work with and the stuff that we do, it all just seems fortuitous relative to all these things coming together. And this program is the pinnacle of that.
Jack: I'm going to ask a soccer question.
Brett: Please.
Jack: Does major league soccer have relegation like the English Professional League does.
Brett: It doesn't. It's one of the facets that sort of makes soccer in the United States different than a lot of other markets. But, I think if you study the sport closely, you can recognize why for a lot of reasons in the U.S. it makes sense to not have promotion relegation. You know, and I personally don't want to get down the rabbit hole of debating what is better or not.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Brett: I'm a proponent, certainly when I look at it, foreign leagues. I think promotion relegation is brilliant because it keeps people focused all season long on their teams. Who's going up, who's going down, who's on the bubble, et cetera. But in the United States for a host of different reasons, based on how the sport evolved, and in many respects, given the incredible success that major league soccer has achieved, especially in the last five years.
The valuations are getting on the franchises and the investments that owners are putting both in stadium players, et cetera. Yeah. You know, it's difficult to see a scenario where, you know, if I look in LAFC, how much that investor group put into their team or Atlanta for that matter. If you had a situation where all sudden they woke up a couple of seasons later, they have a bad season, they go down, that's a tough pill to swallow.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Brett: So for now, I understand the economic reason for why it doesn't exist in the United States. Over time we'll see if it evolves. So, one day maybe it does exist.
Jack: Well as a Phoenix Suns fan. I've often thought that a little relegation might help the NBA.
Brett: Yeah. You know, I think basketball is a good analogy because I know a lot of NBA fans, where all of a sudden at a certain point in the season you kind of start waiting on what your lottery pick’s going to be.
Jack: Exactly.
Brett: Then you start thinking about the draft. That, yeah. Anyway,
Jack: It's a rabbit hole.
Brett: Yeah, it is a rabbit hole. I know we’ve got other things to talk about. We can start a soccer podcast and I loved it. Bore your listeners all long about my soccer thoughts.
Jack: Hey, so before we dig into the Opportunity Zone stuff. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Who is Brett Johnson? Where'd you come from and how'd you get into this business?
Brett: Yeah, so, I've worn a lot of hats in my career. I grew up on the east coast. When I graduated from college, I moved out to the bay area. I spent a couple of years in private equity and investment banking and then had an opportunity to join a fast growing computer accessory company called Targus. And Targus, the claim to fame for that company was the founder of Targus literally invented the first computer carrying case and I had a great run with that company.
I had the fortune of being able to go to London at a young age and assumed responsibility for all of the international business. And then eventually was brought back by the private equity firm that owned Targus to the United States to run the whole company. And then we sold it. Targus is relevant certainly concerning where I am now. Because five years living in London and traveling all over the world, I really saw how soccer in particular is a unifying sport for the world.
I mean, it's almost impossible to go anywhere in the world, not bring up the sport of soccer and not find out the passions that drive so many people. They all have to kind of their favorite EPL team. They all watch live and die by their national team. The World Cup every four years is by far the greatest sporting event in the world, from my vantage point. And I don't think there's much debate there.
Anyway, getting back to, sort of, my background after I sold Targus in '05, I started a private equity company called Benevolent Capital, which I still have. I made a host of investments, real estate, private equity, venture capital about now, five years ago, I had the epiphany while I was watching an MLS game that there was no MLS team in Phoenix, Arizona. And given the size of that city and given the demographics and its location, it seemed like a no brainer to me.
So researching it and I found there was a minor league team. They're called Arizona United. Long story short, I bought half the team and I worked with a partner in that, did our best to kind of build that up, but at some point it became clear that we needed more firepower. We certainly needed more local presence and about a little over two years ago, I was very fortunate to be able to bring in a host of partners. Again, they're almost all of them local. Each one's kind of more connected than the next. Each one brings a different background or experience.
Whether it's marketing, real estate, private equity, venture capital, you kind of bring the whole mix together and we were able to, in the last two years we rebranded to Phoenix Rising. As I said, we built this stadium and then fortuitously the OZ program came along and it's our intention to build a bigger stadium regardless of whether we ever get into MLS.
You know, the league we play in right now, we were fortunate in that it's very competitive. A fan base keeps growing the quality and caliber on and off the pitch of the ownership groups continuing to improve. So we feel very fortunate about the long-term direction of professional soccer. And then when you add on top of it World Cup coming back to the United States, we think we're still in the very early stages of that sport. Continuing to kind of go from strength-to -strength.
The way you got to give credit to the women's national team, you know, how well they've done and how many World Cups they've won and how they've helped to expand the sport. And so, you know, from an Opportunity Zone or fortuitous specific perspective, real estate and sports ownership go hand in hand.
In an ideal world, the equity value of sports franchises continues to kind of go up into the right. In most instances they kind of grow double digits if you can own and control or develop real estate surrounding your facilities and that's both your stadium and you're training facilities, build hotels, office space, retail, et cetera. That’s a long-term way of increasing the returns for investors in that broader franchise.
So again, we kind of saw it and said, okay, well at a minimum for Phoenix Rising, this is a great program. We also own the rights to Tucson. We've a professional soccer team in Tucson, so we're working on an OZ there, program there.
But USL, just in the division we plan in, there are 36 teams across the country, and these are in phenomenal markets. So we're working with a lot of the franchisees to help them look at expanding their real estate and stadiums into Opportunity Zones. And what gets us really excited is we feel we have the ability to develop, literally 1,000-plus acres on OZ. Obviously creating a lot of jobs, creating a lot of assets and building real value in all these communities. So we're beyond excited about it.
Jack: Let me ask you about the Phoenix Rising location in particular. I'm a long time resident of Phoenix and I had my mind blown one day when I was driving west on the 202 and there off to my right is this soccer stadium that seems to have sprung up almost overnight. I realize it was not quite that fast, but…
Brett: It was 51 days, 51 days from shovel in the ground to kicking a soccer ball on opening night. So it was a record time and you know we affectionately refer to that stadium as a pop up stadium and it, and it doesn't do it justice because anyone who has commonly experienced the product, they're blown away. By that experience.
But the reality is it wasn't all things considered. Oh it was okay. Privately funded. We, my partners and I all funded it and then we've got a great relationship. This is on tribal land. We've got a great relationship with Solano, which is our tribal partners and tribal family that we work with that really helped make that happen. And, obviously as most of your listeners are aware, all Indian land is Opportunity Zone land and obviously this all predated it. But you know, we think there's some great opportunities for us to continue to partner with Salt River Pima and other tribes relative to the OZ Program.
Jack: I've stumbled into something that really piqued my interest. I was reading about your time at Targus, and Eugene Topanga was quoted as saying that your leadership was the key reason the company was able to right the ship. What behaviors?
Brett: He's a good guy.
Jack: What behaviors? Okay. I'm going to assume that there was some actual reality behind that statement. What behaviors do you think make for effective leadership and how does that translate into your work with Fortuitous Partners?
Brett: Yeah, it's a great question. A lot of people are unaware that, unfortunately, shortly after I was promoted president, we uncovered that the chief financial officer had been embezzling money in the company for a long time. And, we had a perfect storm internally and externally.
And so I kinda, you gotta be careful what you wish for sometimes cause I had always kind of dreamed of the opportunity to run the company and assume the role and then got hit with, blindsided by an embezzlement that had been going on for a long time. And, it was, it was a substantive Orange County-based company is the largest embezzlement in the history of Orange County. And it wasn't for the faint of heart and it was a real loss of innocence in terms of dealing with that, among other issues, unfortunately. 9/11 happened shortly thereafter and so that started to affect things. And you know, a lot of tough decisions had to be made.
At the end of the day, Targus was a phenomenal brand, global company, outstanding customer relationships, outstanding factor relationships. And we were able to kind of pull the levers and make the right decisions to parade through it. But the way I, when I look back on that time, I wouldn't want to go through it again, but it was a blessing because, the adversity requires you to make tough decisions.
And I think that's how you can tell test your kind of leadership metal if you will. You know, every time when things are going up into the right, everyone looks like a genius.
Jack: Right.
Brett: And everyone thinks they’re Jack Welch and then all of a sudden you hit tough times. And I think that's where you can determine if you can make the right decisions or, or most importantly right or wrong make decisions. Cause sometimes inaction is just as costly. But I feel very fortunate in the arc of my career relative to all the experience. Well the experiences good or bad and how they've helped contribute to where I am today. And I think I'm blessed, relative to ] what I enjoy doing today, which is investing in this sport of soccer. And changing lives. It's not just our professional athletes who I get the pleasure of seeing them play and grow and ideally go on. But it's also all the kids we've got in the Phoenix program alone, we have 10,000 kids that were the Phoenix Rising badge. You know, our Tucson program has thousands of kids as well. And so, you know, a lot of those kids are not going professional, but it's a way to get them moving, teach them life skills and it's much greater than the sport, if you will. And that's again going to the Opportunity Zone program.
When I think about, and I believe rightly so, the bipartisan support of this program in terms of getting private capital to invest in these economically disadvantaged areas, I see just from our vantage point, the program's going to work. It's going to do exactly what everyone wants it to do, which is freeing up private capital to invest, create jobs. Put shovels in the ground. And so I feel strongly that everyone who's in this broader space, we have to make sure that we are yelling from the rooftops, the positive impact that's happening. Because we all have an inherent interest in seeing this program continue to go from this foundation on work and not have any setbacks.
Jack: I want to drill down into that a little deeper. But first, I want to ask a question that is related to that about, a company that looks like you're involved with as well called TerraCycle. What interested you in TerraCycle?
Brett: Yeah, I'm blown away by Thom Zak, who's the founder and CEO. We've known each other for a while now, it's been over 10 years. But when I first met him, he must have been about 20, 21 years old. He dropped out of Princeton University specifically to focus on environmental solutions. You know, but through a sort of a capitalistic approach, finding ways to privatize, divert, upcycle, recycle waste from landfills from land filling. The company's global and it just launches exceptional initiative with PnG, Nestle, Nabisco, right.
Have some big obviously consumer brands. Unilever, I think as well where they're going to find ways to basically return back to the old, as those of us of a certain age remember. Yeah. You used to get milk delivered in bottles to your house when were done, you put the empty bottles out, they'd pick them up and return new ones. It's kind of a grown up version of that or a modernized version of that where your shampoo and other consumables, when you're done with them, those brands will pick them up, clean them up and refill them and send it back. Yeah.
And we all have a vested interest in seeing that system work because you know, it's just not sustainable; the amount of the amount of waste and non-recyclable waste that continues to grow is definitely unsustainable. So well, many reasons. I'm very proud of my investment in association and board membership with TerraCycle. I think they could be on to something that's truly revolutionary with this latest iteration.
Jack: Let's dig into Fortuitous Partners and Opportunity Zone investing as it's wrapped around this whole idea of sports ownership. Definitely, on the surface a perfect fit. Give us the story of Fortuitous Partners and what folks need to know about your company.
Brett: Yeah. Jim Lange, who is a partner at Greenberg Traurig, he's one of the founders of Fortuitous. I met Jim through Goldman Sachs and the very first deck that I received was a deck that Jim Lange had put together on the program. And after I kind of recognize that this program was real. I mean it's not too much of a stretch to say, when I first read about it, I was like, is this an April fool's joke. Does this program really exist?
Jack: I had the same response.
Brett: Yeah. I think everyone basically has, and that's again, that's all credit to everyone behind getting this program, just see the light of day. But once my contact at Goldman said, “Hey, no, this exists. And actually when it comes to sports franchise in the depreciation associated with the stadium and some other benefits, this program can be even better then you're seeing here.” But I asked to be put in touch with Jim Lange and fortuitously, Jim was coming out to Los Angeles where I'm based and Mark Dettmer and I had dinner with him.
I started walking Jim through Phoenix Rising and then obviously we were going to bring on this Tucson franchise. And then I had expressed my admiration for how USL was doing across the league, you know, Sacramento, St Louis, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, El Paso, Baltimore, Buffalo, Hartford, you know the list goes on and on. In terms of the cities and the market they play in and realistically, major league soccer is not going to go to 60 teams.
Jack: Right
Brett: So at some point these markets are perfect for these professional soccer teams. I mean you, you where they sell out every single game. And so anyway, I thinkI kind of painted a vision for Jim Lange and he was excited to join and he's still a Greenberg Traurig, but he's been a founder of Fortuitous. He's an advisor to Fortuitous. He's invaluable to us. And then we're now bringing on, and I think, I can break the seal on it, but it’s the first time to announce that we're bringing on a gentleman Eric Glass from Arizona state retirement.
He manages an ungodly amount of money for the state retirement fund and Arizona of $20 billion. And he's joining us because our aspirations in terms of how much money we intend to raise and how much development we intend on being part of, we need someone like Eric.
Brett: He's been a good friend of Phoenix Rising for several years. You know, he's got every single acronym after his name, CFA, CPA, the entire sort of alphabet soup, if you will. And he's a young, hard working bright guy and he kind of fits in well. So he's, he's part of our partnership. And then I mentioned Berke Bakay who's co-chairman with me. And he's got an incredible background both as a money manager and also private equity. Up until recently h was the CEO and chairman of Kona Grill among other assets.
Jack: Oh.
Brett: And then rounding out the team I mentioned was Mark Dettmer. So when I look at sort of the partnership of the five of us and we all contribute relative to our backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses, expertise. It's a well-rounded team.
And then, at the end of the day it's about being able to execute. As I like to say often I want to get out of the theoretical that guy, I want to get to the point where, you know, we're really, we can sit here and say, “Hey, this is what we're doing in Tucson. This is what we're doing in Phoenix and then a host of other markets that we've got a fortunate position relative to relationships that we have.” And we want it, as I expressed to a lot of other owners in USL markets. However we can help. I'm a champion for this program and if, and if we're helping people move forward on front, good things will happen. I'm confident, I believe in that karmically, if you will.
Jack: What's the single biggest challenge you face with the Opportunity Zone program right now?
Brett: I think for us it's a little bit that we're in many respects, with the bigger soccer anchor development, that's almost always a public/private partnership. So you're a little bit at the mercy of the public mechanisms or stuff that I can't control the timing on legislature and I want to be clear that we're not looking for tax handouts. We're looking for maybe it's a tax increment financing or other mechanisms, but the programs are really gonna generate economic activity that didn't exist before.
And then, being able to create jobs and create development areas. I know in terms of the conversations we're having in broader Phoenix market, Tucson and some other areas. If not for these professional franchises, the reality is these markets most likely wouldn't be developed or it wouldn't be developed anytime soon. And so again, that's another success story that people can start to point out. Relative to the overall Opportunity Zone program.
Jack: Have you gotten any metrics in Phoenix in terms of job creation, long-term job creation as it surrounds Phoenix Rising?
Brett: I mean, I think back of the envelope when I think about the stadium that we intend on building. The hotel office space and the broader mixed use or you know, just anchored with our Phoenix Rising franchise, we see that as $1 billion in economic investment. Now some of them will be through debt obviously.
Jack: Right.
Brett: But either way debt or equity, it's still dollars and you know, that's $1 billion right there. And the amount of jobs that we're confident will be created. So at some point we'll work with, okay. The appropriate consulting firms to really drill down on exactly how many dollars, how much economic benefit. When I kind of take that and I kind describe Phoenix Rising as the bright shiny object and our portfolio. But if we removed Phoenix Rising from it or as I like to say there's no, it's not a state of complete Phoenix Rising is going to get in MLS.
It's beyond competitive relative to that expansion race. I feel comfortable that regardless of whether we stay in USL or we moved to MLS, we'll continue, we'll move forward at another stadium. We are outgrowing our current facility and we want a program with hotels and other assets around it. And at some point we also want to build a training facility. And so the training facility might be in a different location and also be OZone and you know, that's a little bit of a different mix than you'd have at your live lock stadium if you will.
Jack: Right. Does residential get involved with the types of programs that you are wanting to build?
Brett: I think so for sure. I think residential as well. Again, it all depends where. We are interested in multifamily, residential retail office space, obviously hotel. Okay. The stadium we want to create is what we call sort of a 365-day year live block. And that's where you want to have families. You want to have offices because Monday through Friday the offices will drive demand. On weekends you'll have families there, games on the weekends, program concerts, et cetera. But you really want a scenario where people have a reason to go to that site for a lot more than however many games you've got programmed in the stadium.
Jack: I think that's been the weakness of these major sports stadiums over the years is the money out-of-pocket ends up being higher than those who are selling it. The economic returns have been less. But in a situation like you are talking about it seems like the return is going to be significantly better than it has been on these major league.
Brett: Yeah.
Jack: Football, baseball stadiums.
Brett: When I think about our current facility, so we've got capacity stadium right now, all in with the land with the lease that we've got on the land. And then, you know the construction, et Cetera, it's under $10 million for that facility.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: There are countless markets across the country. That are looking for or need what I'll say is a facility that can accommodate up to 10,000 people that have the flexibility to have soccer, lacrosse, football, rugby. And a host concerts. And where I see a great opportunity Jack, is to take these stadiums and then build an annex indoor facility that's got flexibility to put basketball, volleyball.
And then the hottest thing right now is east sports and how much is going into some of these franchises. So I think if you can put that as well, you truly got an anchor that you can see programming stuff year-round. That’s when I get particularly excited because I don't think, on a relative basis when you try to compare it to like an NFL stadium an MLS, it's apples to oranges.
Jack: Oh, yeah.
Brett: Said differently, I think we can build great facilities for somewhere in the neighborhood of let's say $25 million.
Jack: Right.
Brett: Literally. Yeah. You can program no end at different options to what will drive traffic through that site.
Jack: They can't build an NFL parking lot for $25 million. So…
Brett: It's crazy, eight days a year. You know, God blessed NFL. But you know, it was a lot longer term and that's again why I'm such a fan of the USL where currently play because there, there are countless cities perfect for a USL franchise and Albuquerque, they just launched, this is their first season.
And I haven't looked at the numbers lately, but I know on their opening night at 13,000 fans, wow. That's higher than a lot of MLS and certainly it's higher than a couple teams that fairly high profile teams in that MLS right now just aren't playing in the ideal venues or locations. But anyway, I'm not trying to slight MLS, I'm trying to highlight just how, how great franchises and the right market and the right market could be a lot smaller than most people think of.
Jack: Well, the more you, the more you talk about it, the more obvious the name Fortuitous Partners becomes.
Brett: You know, that's it. That's right.
Jack: I want to, I want to kind of find out just a little bit more about, uh, about you as a person. Let's, let's find out. So what are you particularly, what is Brett Johnson particularly good at?
Brett: First and foremost, a husband and a father. And then everything else is secondary. You know, I'm blessed with an incredible wife and three kids. I'm very passionate about all the other stuff that I do, but it's really to make sure that I can provide for my family and then give back. I think we all work way too hard, so have to figure out what the purpose is behind all of it or otherwise a little bit meaningless. So, you know, that's again why I feel fortunate because, I like to focus on things that can make it broader impact, have a higher purpose.
Right now my partners and I, we've just invested in a club in Denmark. We're looking at helping Didier Drogba build a soccer academy in the Ivory Coast. Didier Drogba for the uninitiated in terms of world of global soccer. He's one of the most recognized and famous football players of all time. Played for Chelsea among other clubs, obviously finished up at Phoenix rising. And I see a great opportunity to invest in Didier and by extension build soccer academies that we'll focus on promising young kids. But yeah, most importantly, give them life skills? I mean, the majority of these kids will not go pro.
Jack: Right.
Brett: So they, they have to learn, you know, how to become productive members and leaders from wherever they're from. So anyway, that's probably more than you were asking for.
Jack: No, that's exactly the kind of stuff I like to know. And to hear you talk about giving these athletes. That warms the cockles of my heart. Do not apologize for that. From your perspective, what kind of deals make the most sense for, Opportunity Zone and not just in theory, but in practice?
Brett: Well, again, what I'm blown away with and it's actually something that I hope it's coming across relative to our focus is, is the social impact that we want for kids in our soccer programs. We want to create affordable housing. We want to create jobs. Yeah. And so underlying everything that we do is going to be a core focus on social impact. And that's, that's not just cliché, it's uh, it's got to be part and parcel of this program.
And I am absolutely blown away with putting aside sort the sports side of it for Fortuitous, which is a big part of it.
Start providing access to education, social services for veterans or single mothers. I'm blown away with some of these organizations and I love the synergy that can exist between the foundations that these organizations have. The Opportunity Zone program, bringing in private capital to help them accelerate their impact and their footprint. And so we, we for sure Fortuitous are going to get involved with some of these partners. We are just trying to figure out the optimal way to structure it so that they can do what they do best and we can do what we do best and kind of take it to the next level.
Jack: Well, Brett. I really appreciate you spending some time with us to talk about Opportunity Zone and Fortuitous Partners in particular, it's just good to hear someone who's really got a plan, that from where I sit can make a significant impact in exactly the way that the framers of the Opportunity Zone program anticipated. If folks want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to do that?
Brett: So our website, www.fortuitouspartners.com. And then we've got an email address and we've got, some phone numbers and, and despite my winching earlier, I welcome people reaching out. It just, I also welcomed them understanding if I don't get back to him with any sense of urgency, it might be because it's not a perfect state or candidly in the most positive sense, we've got more than we can handle relative to our current bandwidth. But happy, happy to hear from people and I'm, again, I'm all in on this program, my partners and I, we want to help see this thing become a 30-year success on both sides of the aisle where ever we point to it. I believe it has that potential and I'm not, I know I'm not alone in it.
When I go to OZ Expo and some of these other events, I'm absolutely blown away with the people that are showing up and how much interest and activity in the broader space. So, I'm bullish and optimistic that if all the collective efforts, if this is going to be something that the government and the private sector is going to look back on, say an emphasis, that this is exactly what it was all meant to do.
Jack: Right. This one was a game changer. Well, I want to remind our listeners that as always, the contact information for our guests will be available on the podcast. Any last words for us before we sign off?
Brett: Yeah, come, come to a game, Jack. Let's meet up.
Jack: You know what, I'm going to do that absolutely before it gets too hot.
Brett: Let's get that on the calendar. I ended up by extension, your audience out there, you know, any, anytime anyone in Phoenix, they want to come see the product firsthand, we'd love to show it to you. We brought in countless USL franchisees or prospect of franchisees into our market to have them see it firsthand and they all come away blown away by it. And they'd go back and start to change their parameters of what they, what they want to do relative to not just sports, but obviously on the real estate side as well. So yeah, it's a fun night out.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Brett: Well Jack. I really appreciate it. What a pleasure to be on your show and look forward to meeting you in person in Phoenix and probably in Las Vegas I imagine.
Jack: Uh, you'll, you'll see me in Las Vegas or Phoenix one way or the other. Well Brett, I appreciate your time for the OZExpo Podcast. I am Jack Heald and we will talk to you guys next time.
Brett: Thanks, Jack. Pleasure to be here.
Jack: So, I've got to ask you why the name Fortuitus Partners? That's, that's a very evocative name.
Brett: Yeah, thanks for leading with that. We view the Opportunity Zone program as exactly that. Fortuitous and specifically relative to everything that we were doing relative to supporting our professional sports investments. So, I guess by way of background, my partners and I, we own a professional soccer franchise in Phoenix, Arizona, which is Phoenix Rising Football Club. And it's in the second division of the soccer pyramid in the United States. So, most people know major league soccer. There is a league below major league soccer called United Soccer League, USL. And it's done a phenomenal job, and in many instances it's been a feeder into major league soccer if you see in Cincinnati and now Nashville.
They both came up through the USL and a host of other franchises. So about five years ago, some partners and I, we saw this opportunity. We acquired is franchise. We built a, okay. The stadium about 8,000 seat capacity, minor league stadium. And we've been very fortunate to sell out all of our games and it got put together. The building blocks for what we expect will one day be a major league soccer franchise. So specifically to the point on Fortuitous, about a year ago, Goldman Sachs, who we work with on our stadium financing, specifically to MLS, they brought the Opportunity Zone program to my attention. I immediately had the epiphany relative to how, as I described it, this kind of this program bends the laws of economic gravity.
Jack: Oh, that's a great way to say it.
Brett: Yeah. I mean, I immediately kind of look at all the benefits, obviously the deferral, and the step up and then long-term hold. I mean, it's so consistent with most professional sports investors, look at things you invested for a long term. So yeah, I reached out to a couple of my core partners in Phoenix Rising. In particular, Berke Bakay, who's co-chairman with me at Phoenix Rising. And then another one of our partners who is Mark Dettmer, who's managing director for Jones Lang LaSalle in the west coast for their capital markets. And the three of us started to formulate an idea where we would create a partnership and we all sort of gravitated towards the name Fortuitous.
As we say, often the people that we work with and the stuff that we do, it all just seems fortuitous relative to all these things coming together. And this program is the pinnacle of that.
Jack: I'm going to ask a soccer question.
Brett: Please.
Jack: Does major league soccer have relegation like the English Professional League does.
Brett: It doesn't. It's one of the facets that sort of makes soccer in the United States different than a lot of other markets. But, I think if you study the sport closely, you can recognize why for a lot of reasons in the U.S. it makes sense to not have promotion relegation. You know, and I personally don't want to get down the rabbit hole of debating what is better or not.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Brett: I'm a proponent, certainly when I look at it, foreign leagues. I think promotion relegation is brilliant because it keeps people focused all season long on their teams. Who's going up, who's going down, who's on the bubble, et cetera. But in the United States for a host of different reasons, based on how the sport evolved, and in many respects, given the incredible success that major league soccer has achieved, especially in the last five years.
The valuations are getting on the franchises and the investments that owners are putting both in stadium players, et cetera. Yeah. You know, it's difficult to see a scenario where, you know, if I look in LAFC, how much that investor group put into their team or Atlanta for that matter. If you had a situation where all sudden they woke up a couple of seasons later, they have a bad season, they go down, that's a tough pill to swallow.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Brett: So for now, I understand the economic reason for why it doesn't exist in the United States. Over time we'll see if it evolves. So, one day maybe it does exist.
Jack: Well as a Phoenix Suns fan. I've often thought that a little relegation might help the NBA.
Brett: Yeah. You know, I think basketball is a good analogy because I know a lot of NBA fans, where all of a sudden at a certain point in the season you kind of start waiting on what your lottery pick’s going to be.
Jack: Exactly.
Brett: Then you start thinking about the draft. That, yeah. Anyway,
Jack: It's a rabbit hole.
Brett: Yeah, it is a rabbit hole. I know we’ve got other things to talk about. We can start a soccer podcast and I loved it. Bore your listeners all long about my soccer thoughts.
Jack: Hey, so before we dig into the Opportunity Zone stuff. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Who is Brett Johnson? Where'd you come from and how'd you get into this business?
Brett: Yeah, so, I've worn a lot of hats in my career. I grew up on the east coast. When I graduated from college, I moved out to the bay area. I spent a couple of years in private equity and investment banking and then had an opportunity to join a fast growing computer accessory company called Targus. And Targus, the claim to fame for that company was the founder of Targus literally invented the first computer carrying case and I had a great run with that company.
I had the fortune of being able to go to London at a young age and assumed responsibility for all of the international business. And then eventually was brought back by the private equity firm that owned Targus to the United States to run the whole company. And then we sold it. Targus is relevant certainly concerning where I am now. Because five years living in London and traveling all over the world, I really saw how soccer in particular is a unifying sport for the world.
I mean, it's almost impossible to go anywhere in the world, not bring up the sport of soccer and not find out the passions that drive so many people. They all have to kind of their favorite EPL team. They all watch live and die by their national team. The World Cup every four years is by far the greatest sporting event in the world, from my vantage point. And I don't think there's much debate there.
Anyway, getting back to, sort of, my background after I sold Targus in '05, I started a private equity company called Benevolent Capital, which I still have. I made a host of investments, real estate, private equity, venture capital about now, five years ago, I had the epiphany while I was watching an MLS game that there was no MLS team in Phoenix, Arizona. And given the size of that city and given the demographics and its location, it seemed like a no brainer to me.
So researching it and I found there was a minor league team. They're called Arizona United. Long story short, I bought half the team and I worked with a partner in that, did our best to kind of build that up, but at some point it became clear that we needed more firepower. We certainly needed more local presence and about a little over two years ago, I was very fortunate to be able to bring in a host of partners. Again, they're almost all of them local. Each one's kind of more connected than the next. Each one brings a different background or experience.
Whether it's marketing, real estate, private equity, venture capital, you kind of bring the whole mix together and we were able to, in the last two years we rebranded to Phoenix Rising. As I said, we built this stadium and then fortuitously the OZ program came along and it's our intention to build a bigger stadium regardless of whether we ever get into MLS.
You know, the league we play in right now, we were fortunate in that it's very competitive. A fan base keeps growing the quality and caliber on and off the pitch of the ownership groups continuing to improve. So we feel very fortunate about the long-term direction of professional soccer. And then when you add on top of it World Cup coming back to the United States, we think we're still in the very early stages of that sport. Continuing to kind of go from strength-to -strength.
The way you got to give credit to the women's national team, you know, how well they've done and how many World Cups they've won and how they've helped to expand the sport. And so, you know, from an Opportunity Zone or fortuitous specific perspective, real estate and sports ownership go hand in hand.
In an ideal world, the equity value of sports franchises continues to kind of go up into the right. In most instances they kind of grow double digits if you can own and control or develop real estate surrounding your facilities and that's both your stadium and you're training facilities, build hotels, office space, retail, et cetera. That’s a long-term way of increasing the returns for investors in that broader franchise.
So again, we kind of saw it and said, okay, well at a minimum for Phoenix Rising, this is a great program. We also own the rights to Tucson. We've a professional soccer team in Tucson, so we're working on an OZ there, program there.
But USL, just in the division we plan in, there are 36 teams across the country, and these are in phenomenal markets. So we're working with a lot of the franchisees to help them look at expanding their real estate and stadiums into Opportunity Zones. And what gets us really excited is we feel we have the ability to develop, literally 1,000-plus acres on OZ. Obviously creating a lot of jobs, creating a lot of assets and building real value in all these communities. So we're beyond excited about it.
Jack: Let me ask you about the Phoenix Rising location in particular. I'm a long time resident of Phoenix and I had my mind blown one day when I was driving west on the 202 and there off to my right is this soccer stadium that seems to have sprung up almost overnight. I realize it was not quite that fast, but…
Brett: It was 51 days, 51 days from shovel in the ground to kicking a soccer ball on opening night. So it was a record time and you know we affectionately refer to that stadium as a pop up stadium and it, and it doesn't do it justice because anyone who has commonly experienced the product, they're blown away. By that experience.
But the reality is it wasn't all things considered. Oh it was okay. Privately funded. We, my partners and I all funded it and then we've got a great relationship. This is on tribal land. We've got a great relationship with Solano, which is our tribal partners and tribal family that we work with that really helped make that happen. And, obviously as most of your listeners are aware, all Indian land is Opportunity Zone land and obviously this all predated it. But you know, we think there's some great opportunities for us to continue to partner with Salt River Pima and other tribes relative to the OZ Program.
Jack: I've stumbled into something that really piqued my interest. I was reading about your time at Targus, and Eugene Topanga was quoted as saying that your leadership was the key reason the company was able to right the ship. What behaviors?
Brett: He's a good guy.
Jack: What behaviors? Okay. I'm going to assume that there was some actual reality behind that statement. What behaviors do you think make for effective leadership and how does that translate into your work with Fortuitous Partners?
Brett: Yeah, it's a great question. A lot of people are unaware that, unfortunately, shortly after I was promoted president, we uncovered that the chief financial officer had been embezzling money in the company for a long time. And, we had a perfect storm internally and externally.
And so I kinda, you gotta be careful what you wish for sometimes cause I had always kind of dreamed of the opportunity to run the company and assume the role and then got hit with, blindsided by an embezzlement that had been going on for a long time. And, it was, it was a substantive Orange County-based company is the largest embezzlement in the history of Orange County. And it wasn't for the faint of heart and it was a real loss of innocence in terms of dealing with that, among other issues, unfortunately. 9/11 happened shortly thereafter and so that started to affect things. And you know, a lot of tough decisions had to be made.
At the end of the day, Targus was a phenomenal brand, global company, outstanding customer relationships, outstanding factor relationships. And we were able to kind of pull the levers and make the right decisions to parade through it. But the way I, when I look back on that time, I wouldn't want to go through it again, but it was a blessing because, the adversity requires you to make tough decisions.
And I think that's how you can tell test your kind of leadership metal if you will. You know, every time when things are going up into the right, everyone looks like a genius.
Jack: Right.
Brett: And everyone thinks they’re Jack Welch and then all of a sudden you hit tough times. And I think that's where you can determine if you can make the right decisions or, or most importantly right or wrong make decisions. Cause sometimes inaction is just as costly. But I feel very fortunate in the arc of my career relative to all the experience. Well the experiences good or bad and how they've helped contribute to where I am today. And I think I'm blessed, relative to ] what I enjoy doing today, which is investing in this sport of soccer. And changing lives. It's not just our professional athletes who I get the pleasure of seeing them play and grow and ideally go on. But it's also all the kids we've got in the Phoenix program alone, we have 10,000 kids that were the Phoenix Rising badge. You know, our Tucson program has thousands of kids as well. And so, you know, a lot of those kids are not going professional, but it's a way to get them moving, teach them life skills and it's much greater than the sport, if you will. And that's again going to the Opportunity Zone program.
When I think about, and I believe rightly so, the bipartisan support of this program in terms of getting private capital to invest in these economically disadvantaged areas, I see just from our vantage point, the program's going to work. It's going to do exactly what everyone wants it to do, which is freeing up private capital to invest, create jobs. Put shovels in the ground. And so I feel strongly that everyone who's in this broader space, we have to make sure that we are yelling from the rooftops, the positive impact that's happening. Because we all have an inherent interest in seeing this program continue to go from this foundation on work and not have any setbacks.
Jack: I want to drill down into that a little deeper. But first, I want to ask a question that is related to that about, a company that looks like you're involved with as well called TerraCycle. What interested you in TerraCycle?
Brett: Yeah, I'm blown away by Thom Zak, who's the founder and CEO. We've known each other for a while now, it's been over 10 years. But when I first met him, he must have been about 20, 21 years old. He dropped out of Princeton University specifically to focus on environmental solutions. You know, but through a sort of a capitalistic approach, finding ways to privatize, divert, upcycle, recycle waste from landfills from land filling. The company's global and it just launches exceptional initiative with PnG, Nestle, Nabisco, right.
Have some big obviously consumer brands. Unilever, I think as well where they're going to find ways to basically return back to the old, as those of us of a certain age remember. Yeah. You used to get milk delivered in bottles to your house when were done, you put the empty bottles out, they'd pick them up and return new ones. It's kind of a grown up version of that or a modernized version of that where your shampoo and other consumables, when you're done with them, those brands will pick them up, clean them up and refill them and send it back. Yeah.
And we all have a vested interest in seeing that system work because you know, it's just not sustainable; the amount of the amount of waste and non-recyclable waste that continues to grow is definitely unsustainable. So well, many reasons. I'm very proud of my investment in association and board membership with TerraCycle. I think they could be on to something that's truly revolutionary with this latest iteration.
Jack: Let's dig into Fortuitous Partners and Opportunity Zone investing as it's wrapped around this whole idea of sports ownership. Definitely, on the surface a perfect fit. Give us the story of Fortuitous Partners and what folks need to know about your company.
Brett: Yeah. Jim Lange, who is a partner at Greenberg Traurig, he's one of the founders of Fortuitous. I met Jim through Goldman Sachs and the very first deck that I received was a deck that Jim Lange had put together on the program. And after I kind of recognize that this program was real. I mean it's not too much of a stretch to say, when I first read about it, I was like, is this an April fool's joke. Does this program really exist?
Jack: I had the same response.
Brett: Yeah. I think everyone basically has, and that's again, that's all credit to everyone behind getting this program, just see the light of day. But once my contact at Goldman said, “Hey, no, this exists. And actually when it comes to sports franchise in the depreciation associated with the stadium and some other benefits, this program can be even better then you're seeing here.” But I asked to be put in touch with Jim Lange and fortuitously, Jim was coming out to Los Angeles where I'm based and Mark Dettmer and I had dinner with him.
I started walking Jim through Phoenix Rising and then obviously we were going to bring on this Tucson franchise. And then I had expressed my admiration for how USL was doing across the league, you know, Sacramento, St Louis, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, Oklahoma City, El Paso, Baltimore, Buffalo, Hartford, you know the list goes on and on. In terms of the cities and the market they play in and realistically, major league soccer is not going to go to 60 teams.
Jack: Right
Brett: So at some point these markets are perfect for these professional soccer teams. I mean you, you where they sell out every single game. And so anyway, I thinkI kind of painted a vision for Jim Lange and he was excited to join and he's still a Greenberg Traurig, but he's been a founder of Fortuitous. He's an advisor to Fortuitous. He's invaluable to us. And then we're now bringing on, and I think, I can break the seal on it, but it’s the first time to announce that we're bringing on a gentleman Eric Glass from Arizona state retirement.
He manages an ungodly amount of money for the state retirement fund and Arizona of $20 billion. And he's joining us because our aspirations in terms of how much money we intend to raise and how much development we intend on being part of, we need someone like Eric.
Brett: He's been a good friend of Phoenix Rising for several years. You know, he's got every single acronym after his name, CFA, CPA, the entire sort of alphabet soup, if you will. And he's a young, hard working bright guy and he kind of fits in well. So he's, he's part of our partnership. And then I mentioned Berke Bakay who's co-chairman with me. And he's got an incredible background both as a money manager and also private equity. Up until recently h was the CEO and chairman of Kona Grill among other assets.
Jack: Oh.
Brett: And then rounding out the team I mentioned was Mark Dettmer. So when I look at sort of the partnership of the five of us and we all contribute relative to our backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses, expertise. It's a well-rounded team.
And then, at the end of the day it's about being able to execute. As I like to say often I want to get out of the theoretical that guy, I want to get to the point where, you know, we're really, we can sit here and say, “Hey, this is what we're doing in Tucson. This is what we're doing in Phoenix and then a host of other markets that we've got a fortunate position relative to relationships that we have.” And we want it, as I expressed to a lot of other owners in USL markets. However we can help. I'm a champion for this program and if, and if we're helping people move forward on front, good things will happen. I'm confident, I believe in that karmically, if you will.
Jack: What's the single biggest challenge you face with the Opportunity Zone program right now?
Brett: I think for us it's a little bit that we're in many respects, with the bigger soccer anchor development, that's almost always a public/private partnership. So you're a little bit at the mercy of the public mechanisms or stuff that I can't control the timing on legislature and I want to be clear that we're not looking for tax handouts. We're looking for maybe it's a tax increment financing or other mechanisms, but the programs are really gonna generate economic activity that didn't exist before.
And then, being able to create jobs and create development areas. I know in terms of the conversations we're having in broader Phoenix market, Tucson and some other areas. If not for these professional franchises, the reality is these markets most likely wouldn't be developed or it wouldn't be developed anytime soon. And so again, that's another success story that people can start to point out. Relative to the overall Opportunity Zone program.
Jack: Have you gotten any metrics in Phoenix in terms of job creation, long-term job creation as it surrounds Phoenix Rising?
Brett: I mean, I think back of the envelope when I think about the stadium that we intend on building. The hotel office space and the broader mixed use or you know, just anchored with our Phoenix Rising franchise, we see that as $1 billion in economic investment. Now some of them will be through debt obviously.
Jack: Right.
Brett: But either way debt or equity, it's still dollars and you know, that's $1 billion right there. And the amount of jobs that we're confident will be created. So at some point we'll work with, okay. The appropriate consulting firms to really drill down on exactly how many dollars, how much economic benefit. When I kind of take that and I kind describe Phoenix Rising as the bright shiny object and our portfolio. But if we removed Phoenix Rising from it or as I like to say there's no, it's not a state of complete Phoenix Rising is going to get in MLS.
It's beyond competitive relative to that expansion race. I feel comfortable that regardless of whether we stay in USL or we moved to MLS, we'll continue, we'll move forward at another stadium. We are outgrowing our current facility and we want a program with hotels and other assets around it. And at some point we also want to build a training facility. And so the training facility might be in a different location and also be OZone and you know, that's a little bit of a different mix than you'd have at your live lock stadium if you will.
Jack: Right. Does residential get involved with the types of programs that you are wanting to build?
Brett: I think so for sure. I think residential as well. Again, it all depends where. We are interested in multifamily, residential retail office space, obviously hotel. Okay. The stadium we want to create is what we call sort of a 365-day year live block. And that's where you want to have families. You want to have offices because Monday through Friday the offices will drive demand. On weekends you'll have families there, games on the weekends, program concerts, et cetera. But you really want a scenario where people have a reason to go to that site for a lot more than however many games you've got programmed in the stadium.
Jack: I think that's been the weakness of these major sports stadiums over the years is the money out-of-pocket ends up being higher than those who are selling it. The economic returns have been less. But in a situation like you are talking about it seems like the return is going to be significantly better than it has been on these major league.
Brett: Yeah.
Jack: Football, baseball stadiums.
Brett: When I think about our current facility, so we've got capacity stadium right now, all in with the land with the lease that we've got on the land. And then, you know the construction, et Cetera, it's under $10 million for that facility.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: There are countless markets across the country. That are looking for or need what I'll say is a facility that can accommodate up to 10,000 people that have the flexibility to have soccer, lacrosse, football, rugby. And a host concerts. And where I see a great opportunity Jack, is to take these stadiums and then build an annex indoor facility that's got flexibility to put basketball, volleyball.
And then the hottest thing right now is east sports and how much is going into some of these franchises. So I think if you can put that as well, you truly got an anchor that you can see programming stuff year-round. That’s when I get particularly excited because I don't think, on a relative basis when you try to compare it to like an NFL stadium an MLS, it's apples to oranges.
Jack: Oh, yeah.
Brett: Said differently, I think we can build great facilities for somewhere in the neighborhood of let's say $25 million.
Jack: Right.
Brett: Literally. Yeah. You can program no end at different options to what will drive traffic through that site.
Jack: They can't build an NFL parking lot for $25 million. So…
Brett: It's crazy, eight days a year. You know, God blessed NFL. But you know, it was a lot longer term and that's again why I'm such a fan of the USL where currently play because there, there are countless cities perfect for a USL franchise and Albuquerque, they just launched, this is their first season.
And I haven't looked at the numbers lately, but I know on their opening night at 13,000 fans, wow. That's higher than a lot of MLS and certainly it's higher than a couple teams that fairly high profile teams in that MLS right now just aren't playing in the ideal venues or locations. But anyway, I'm not trying to slight MLS, I'm trying to highlight just how, how great franchises and the right market and the right market could be a lot smaller than most people think of.
Jack: Well, the more you, the more you talk about it, the more obvious the name Fortuitous Partners becomes.
Brett: You know, that's it. That's right.
Jack: I want to, I want to kind of find out just a little bit more about, uh, about you as a person. Let's, let's find out. So what are you particularly, what is Brett Johnson particularly good at?
Brett: First and foremost, a husband and a father. And then everything else is secondary. You know, I'm blessed with an incredible wife and three kids. I'm very passionate about all the other stuff that I do, but it's really to make sure that I can provide for my family and then give back. I think we all work way too hard, so have to figure out what the purpose is behind all of it or otherwise a little bit meaningless. So, you know, that's again why I feel fortunate because, I like to focus on things that can make it broader impact, have a higher purpose.
Right now my partners and I, we've just invested in a club in Denmark. We're looking at helping Didier Drogba build a soccer academy in the Ivory Coast. Didier Drogba for the uninitiated in terms of world of global soccer. He's one of the most recognized and famous football players of all time. Played for Chelsea among other clubs, obviously finished up at Phoenix rising. And I see a great opportunity to invest in Didier and by extension build soccer academies that we'll focus on promising young kids. But yeah, most importantly, give them life skills? I mean, the majority of these kids will not go pro.
Jack: Right.
Brett: So they, they have to learn, you know, how to become productive members and leaders from wherever they're from. So anyway, that's probably more than you were asking for.
Jack: No, that's exactly the kind of stuff I like to know. And to hear you talk about giving these athletes. That warms the cockles of my heart. Do not apologize for that. From your perspective, what kind of deals make the most sense for, Opportunity Zone and not just in theory, but in practice?
Brett: Well, again, what I'm blown away with and it's actually something that I hope it's coming across relative to our focus is, is the social impact that we want for kids in our soccer programs. We want to create affordable housing. We want to create jobs. Yeah. And so underlying everything that we do is going to be a core focus on social impact. And that's, that's not just cliché, it's uh, it's got to be part and parcel of this program.
And I am absolutely blown away with putting aside sort the sports side of it for Fortuitous, which is a big part of it.
Start providing access to education, social services for veterans or single mothers. I'm blown away with some of these organizations and I love the synergy that can exist between the foundations that these organizations have. The Opportunity Zone program, bringing in private capital to help them accelerate their impact and their footprint. And so we, we for sure Fortuitous are going to get involved with some of these partners. We are just trying to figure out the optimal way to structure it so that they can do what they do best and we can do what we do best and kind of take it to the next level.
Jack: Well, Brett. I really appreciate you spending some time with us to talk about Opportunity Zone and Fortuitous Partners in particular, it's just good to hear someone who's really got a plan, that from where I sit can make a significant impact in exactly the way that the framers of the Opportunity Zone program anticipated. If folks want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to do that?
Brett: So our website, www.fortuitouspartners.com. And then we've got an email address and we've got, some phone numbers and, and despite my winching earlier, I welcome people reaching out. It just, I also welcomed them understanding if I don't get back to him with any sense of urgency, it might be because it's not a perfect state or candidly in the most positive sense, we've got more than we can handle relative to our current bandwidth. But happy, happy to hear from people and I'm, again, I'm all in on this program, my partners and I, we want to help see this thing become a 30-year success on both sides of the aisle where ever we point to it. I believe it has that potential and I'm not, I know I'm not alone in it.
When I go to OZ Expo and some of these other events, I'm absolutely blown away with the people that are showing up and how much interest and activity in the broader space. So, I'm bullish and optimistic that if all the collective efforts, if this is going to be something that the government and the private sector is going to look back on, say an emphasis, that this is exactly what it was all meant to do.
Jack: Right. This one was a game changer. Well, I want to remind our listeners that as always, the contact information for our guests will be available on the podcast. Any last words for us before we sign off?
Brett: Yeah, come, come to a game, Jack. Let's meet up.
Jack: You know what, I'm going to do that absolutely before it gets too hot.
Brett: Let's get that on the calendar. I ended up by extension, your audience out there, you know, any, anytime anyone in Phoenix, they want to come see the product firsthand, we'd love to show it to you. We brought in countless USL franchisees or prospect of franchisees into our market to have them see it firsthand and they all come away blown away by it. And they'd go back and start to change their parameters of what they, what they want to do relative to not just sports, but obviously on the real estate side as well. So yeah, it's a fun night out.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Brett: Well Jack. I really appreciate it. What a pleasure to be on your show and look forward to meeting you in person in Phoenix and probably in Las Vegas I imagine.
Jack: Uh, you'll, you'll see me in Las Vegas or Phoenix one way or the other. Well Brett, I appreciate your time for the OZExpo Podcast. I am Jack Heald and we will talk to you guys next time.
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